Moonlightaholics

Thanks for the information Coco. Sounds like I need to revisit this episode soon.

I think, too, that he was waiting for the other shoe to drop, assuming that human Morgan was about to out him as a vampire, or at the very least, press assault charges for his actions toward her in the cemetary. Which, had she NOT been Coraline, she would have had every right and reason to do. He was waiting to hear from Beth whether or not he was going to be re-locating, among other things. Understandably tense.

He has difficulties communicating to this young woman, for whom he has feelings, and to whom he wishes to present himself as a good guy, not a monster, what it was like for him in the grip of his initial obsession with Coraline. And it was very hard for him to convey how wrapped up he had become in his memories of that obsession. So, yeah, he wasn't as understanding and patient with her as he might have been, but I rather think it was Beth's turn to be understanding and patient with him.

Lucky

librarian_7 wrote:I think, too, that he was waiting for the other shoe to drop, assuming that human Morgan was about to out him as a vampire, or at the very least, press assault charges for his actions toward her in the cemetary. Which, had she NOT been Coraline, she would have had every right and reason to do. He was waiting to hear from Beth whether or not he was going to be re-locating, among other things. Understandably tense.

He has difficulties communicating to this young woman, for whom he has feelings, and to whom he wishes to present himself as a good guy, not a monster, what it was like for him in the grip of his initial obsession with Coraline. And it was very hard for him to convey how wrapped up he had become in his memories of that obsession. So, yeah, he wasn't as understanding and patient with her as he might have been, but I rather think it was Beth's turn to be understanding and patient with him.

Lucky

See I didn't look at it like that. Thank you for pointing that out Lucky. It never crossed my mind that those things may have been going through his mind (and now that I'm posting this I've no idea why these things didn't go through my mind ).

These discussions do open your mind to different things even after all this time.

I didn't find Mick to be particularly harsh just realistic. He'd been put through the ringer (hahahahaha) and now had to answer Beth's questions. I thought that last scene was difficult for both of them.

tecc wrote:

That was my original point. We all see different things in the same show. Problems arise when people start stating opinions as irrefutable facts.

You and Liana relate to Beth. I don't. We are all still entitled to our own opinions and speculations - without being told we are wrong.

Hmmm....I didn't see anything where anyone said that anyone was wrong. I saw some things posted that were fact, what was given to us from the show which to me still doesn't paint Coraline in a good light which IMO is what the writers were after - the rest is pure speculation on everyone's part. I guess how you interpret it is the key.

Actually one fact is that Cora told Mick she turned him because she thought she was giving him the greatest gift she could give... and she did say she loved him. Now that turning was, quite clearly, very misguided. But not evil. Not a villain. To me, a women who loved, quite understandably, a man and misjudged how her secret would appear to him. She did not see being a vampire as a bad thing... nor did Josef. So that one act, which began the destruction of their marriage just as it began, was tragic, but not vicious, not about possession, not about evil. Folks read into that act these things... speculation it has been called... because clearly the marriage DID fail and the trust WAS broken. And no one ever speaks kindly of their ex... vamp or mortal.

Josef told Beth that Cora kidnapped BabyBeth as a desperate act, like some mortal women trying to have a baby, to save a sinking marriage. Again, not evil. Tragic and misguided and not gonna work. And in this case it involved actually injuring the child... tho again, to a dedicated vamp, BEING a vamp isn't a bad thing. Perspectives vary. Even within the characters on the show, not just here on the board. So again, canon gives us reason to suspect Coraline of plotting and planning, but it also gives us reason to know she loved him and wanted their marriage to work, desperately, which inspires a sense of understanding in me... who wants to love and then lose Mick? I mean, as fans, we lost Mick when the show ended, and look how crazy that made some of us. And we only lost him figuratively...

Coraline is quite complex to me... the various eps with her in it, show her to be quite complicated. I would think that makes sense, a person of her age. Just as Josef is quite complicated. And they both have some dark and some selfish (as Mick told Josef in SB), as any vampire would... but moreover, as anyone from a privileged class historically would. The writers did not try to write either of the older vamps as immune to their own historical eras... and kudos to them for that.

However, this odd but interesting convo started with poor Liana's post... again I think her wording was unfortunate and perhaps unintentional... she stated her opinion and speculation as fact... and declared other's interpretations as speculation. I think much of the convo that has since transpired has been asking that everyone admit their opinions are just that... and that very little was actually revealed on the show...

As coco stated, we have ample evidence that both women loved him and that he loved them both... differently... as would be normal given that they were different women. And neither woman was perfect or treated him perfectly. And we are all very protective of Mick... we were supposed to identify with his perspective... thus the v/o's. So that is understandable. But he was the only vamp who hated vamps... we need to remember that...

I admit I didn't read all posts about the episode but it seems to me that we need to make the distinction between the facts/data (here is the scientist in me talking) and any kind of wishful thinking/interpretation.
If we just look at what the writers of ML gave us, granted they left some holes and only had 16 episodes, there is really no evidence that Mick and Coraline's marriage was anything but "destructive", "a freak show" or all the very unflattering terms Josef used to describe it. I will side with Liana and Coco here. Even Mick used phrases like "mind games that reek of Coraline" or "how dangerous she was" etc. He had his chances later: in SB at the hospital, Mick showed no interest in finding out how Coraline survived, it was all about the cure! Same in TMC, he didn't even consider the idea of going with her, his "I am not going anywhere" was quick and harsh. Even in the shower scene in FDL, it was all about "how you become human" and never "Oh! you survived the fire".
Now, what the wonderful fanfic writers come up with is a completely different story: what should have, might have, could have been is all in the realm of their rich imaginations and not supported by what was put on the screen. I love reading their stories no matter what the perspective but the hard facts are quite different.
Still, always fun to read this thread.

Whew, I had to drop by to see what all the fuss is about! I have to say that I agree with everything Liana said (except I guess for the improper use of the word "wrong"). Of course we all have our opinions, but I do think that what was actually dialogue in the show has to carry the most weight, and when I read what Josef said about Mick and Coraline's marriage, it's pretty damning of that relationship. Josef also said Mick doesn't think with his big head when it comes to Coraline; IMO that signifies lust, not love. I also agree with Mags' opinion that Coraline served as a device to bring Mick and Beth together. IMO Cora was the past (and not a happy one), Beth was the future. As for Beth not having said "I love you," I think Lucky is right when she says:

As women, we are HEAVILY culturally conditioned not to tell a man "I love you" without hearing it from him first. This is stupid, I know, and a throwback to earlier social conditions (for example, read Austen's Sense and Sensibility, and see how much trouble Marianne gets in over making her feelings known for that turkey, Mr. Willoughby).

I can just imagine the criticism Beth would have been in for her if she had dared to be the first one to say "I love you." Just my humble opinion of course!

Actually one fact is that Cora told Mick she turned him because she thought she was giving him the greatest gift she could give... and she did say she loved him.

Thank you Grace. I have to recant what I wrote earlier. I had said that Coraline never actually said she loved Mick and I was wrong. She does say it. Actually, she says it twice. LOL.

Coraline is quite complex to me... the various eps with her in it, show her to be quite complicated. I would think that makes sense, a person of her age. Just as Josef is quite complicated. And they both have some dark and some selfish (as Mick told Josef in SB), as any vampire would... but moreover, as anyone from a privileged class historically would. The writers did not try to write either of the older vamps as immune to their own historical eras... and kudos to them for that.

Good points there. Both Coraline and Josef would be products of the times they were born in as well as the time they'd spent on earth - a considerable amount of time. They've both had to adjust to what they've experienced over the years. Of course they would be complicated, complex beings.

darlingcat wrote:I admit I didn't read all posts about the episode but it seems to me that we need to make the distinction between the facts/data (here is the scientist in me talking) and any kind of wishful thinking/interpretation.
If we just look at what the writers of ML gave us, granted they left some holes and only had 16 episodes, there is really no evidence that Mick and Coraline's marriage was anything but "destructive", "a freak show" or all the very unflattering terms Josef used to describe it. I will side with Liana and Coco here. Even Mick used phrases like "mind games that reek of Coraline" or "how dangerous she was" etc. He had his chances later: in SB at the hospital, Mick showed no interest in finding out how Coraline survived, it was all about the cure! Same in TMC, he didn't even consider the idea of going with her, his "I am not going anywhere" was quick and harsh. Even in the shower scene in FDL, it was all about "how you become human" and never "Oh! you survived the fire".
Now, what the wonderful fanfic writers come up with is a completely different story: what should have, might have, could have been is all in the realm of their rich imaginations and not supported by what was put on the screen. I love reading their stories no matter what the perspective but the hard facts are quite different.
Still, always fun to read this thread.

dc.

I didn't say anything like that about Coraline in my posts. My view and Liana's view are different. I said that the depiction of the Mick/Beth relationship was very different from the Mick/Cora relationship in the show and I commented on the passion of the two couples and the way it was portrayed on the show but I didn't bash Coraline at any point in my post. I don't agree with everything she did on the show but I don't see her as an evil character either.

I'm not posting this to start another disagreement. I merely wanted to point out the confusion with dc's post.

Darlingcat, it's important to remember that what we have here are interactions with a text. This is not hard scientific data. Human (or in this case vampire!) statements are open to multiple interpretation, as are the actions, expressions, and so on presented.

If there were only one correct interpretation, there would be no point in discussion. This is true of any text, otherwise, English professors would have no jobs!

But I think that taking any aspect of it, and saying "this is fact" is begging the question.

Lucky

OK, Coco, dear I guess I agree with Liana

And Librarian, I used "fact" not as a strict scientific term, just to focus on what the ML writers actually gave the viewers.
I have no interest in stirring any controversy either. I simply see a huge difference between what we have and what, some of us at least, wish we had been given.

I've just taken some time to catch up with this thread - and I have to say, much as I love the debate, I hate the tone of many posts here. People being told they're wrong; people being shouted down when they express their opinions; people stirring the argument.

I really, really don't understand why some very simple truths can't be agreed on here - and people take the time to respect the other members of this board.

Mick was married to Coraline for a long time; there are a number of different perspectives given on the show (Josef, Mick, Coraline, Beth). In spite of a lot of evidence to the contrary, there are some who choose to believe that Mick never loved Coraline and Coraline never loved Mick. Do I think that's an idiotic view? Frankly, yes. Do members of this board have the right to express it? Of course. Do other members have the right to disagree vehemently? Of course.

I think everyone is agreed that Mick loved Beth and that Beth loved Mick. But there are many different kinds of love and at different times and in different ways, those feelings may have changed and been expressed (or not). Just because Beth didn't say "I love you" didn't mean she didn't love Mick. To me it's obvious she did - but hey, some people don't see that - and that's just fine with me. Trying to convince people that a certain phrase spoken by one character proves your point beyond doubt is just silly - it's easy to find a counter-quote or scene, or look that contradicts. And that's what's so wonderful about ML - it was never straightforward. It wasn't simple - these characters were complex and we all do them a disservice by trying to make them simple or easy to understand.

I just have one wish - that members get involved, read the threads and respond reasonably - not just trying to stir up arguments or prove a point. If we'd all seen the same things in Moonlight, I guarantee we wouldn't have the same love and passion for it as we all OBVIOUSLY do. So please, take a moment before you post and remember that other members' opinions are just as valid as yours, no matter how wrong you think they are.

Red

If we're going to take THIS EPISODE on its merit, we see:

- a vampire who gets his cage rattled when his vampire ex-wife shows back up - since she's supposed to be dead. Add in the fact that not only is she not dead, she's HUMAN.
- a woman who taunts and teases said vampire with hints of favorite songs, 50's themes, dying in a fire and a possible tattoo.
- ANOTHER woman who's suddenly not the focus of said vampire's attentions and becomes unjustifiably jealous.

As far as I can see, no one's hands are clean in this episode. Morgan/Coraline could have put Mick's mind at ease by coming out and saying "SURPRISE! I didn't die and I have a temporary cure!"...but she didn't. Beth had no right to be jealous of Morgan - she had a boyfriend (which was pointed out to Morgan by Beth AND Mick) and no claim on Mick. And let's not forget Mick.

Mick is not a saint. By his own admission, he not only saw himself as a monster, he WAS a monster. The glimpses we get into his past show a guy that wasn't always above board, especially in his dealings with women. His struggle for redemption is what made him so wonderfully fascinating.

GuardianAngel wrote:

Actually one fact is that Cora told Mick she turned him because she thought she was giving him the greatest gift she could give... and she did say she loved him.

Thank you Grace. I have to recant what I wrote earlier. I had said that Coraline never actually said she loved Mick and I was wrong. She does say it. Actually, she says it twice. LOL.

Coraline is quite complex to me... the various eps with her in it, show her to be quite complicated. I would think that makes sense, a person of her age. Just as Josef is quite complicated. And they both have some dark and some selfish (as Mick told Josef in SB), as any vampire would... but moreover, as anyone from a privileged class historically would. The writers did not try to write either of the older vamps as immune to their own historical eras... and kudos to them for that.

Good points there. Both Coraline and Josef would be products of the times they were born in as well as the time they'd spent on earth - a considerable amount of time. They've both had to adjust to what they've experienced over the years. Of course they would be complicated, complex beings.

Yes, and this isn't about Beth vs. Coraline to me... so this conversation is ODD to me... why I wrote earlier that for MickBeth lovers, they should relax... Cora is not a threat to adult Beth... nor to the MickBeth romance. But Cora IS far more complicated and interesting than a 2D villain. She said she loved him; she said she turned him to give him a gift. Imputing anything else to her motives IS speculation. Canon is that she loved and turned him out of love. Misguided? Seriously misguided! And those of us who see and appreciate that don't "pull" for Coraline. I pulled for MickBeth in Sonata and was disappointed they closed the damn door. ( I also like NC17 fic... surprise!!)

And no question, the marriage ended up a disaster, in fact began in failure, because trust was broken and they had other issues... she is a schemer, no doubt... the Franklin fire shows that. That still does not negate that she loved him... Scarlett O'Hara was also a schemer, but she loved her man... men... whatever... (fidelity WAS an issue in THAT marriage...)

But to me, Moonlight was not just a romance, not just a boy meets girl, or meets again, whatever, story. That is too simplistic. It is a vampire tale... Mick said difficult dangerous and complicated how many times? It wasn't just about getting he and Beth together. It was about MICK... not Mick and Beth or Mick and Cora... it was about MICK. And so we saw things from his perspective... but the delicious part about it being a vamp show is the very different perspectives that Josef and Cora bring to it... Beth is like us... she thinks like us... she is of our generation and our world. So we easily get her... and thus maybe I'm a bit bored by her... But Josef and Cora? They've been around the block, and been on many different blocks. How fascinating! I love them both! Of course I also loved Lance and Lola... both really cool characters... tho only one-shots... too bad!

And Red is so very right... read the posts before you reply... this isn't about taking sides... there are no sides... there is no show! It ended with the door closing and alllllllll the speculation... and no canon... about what happens next... and all the delicious and varied fanfic to theorize!

Phoenix wrote:Liana, I didn't twist your words. I responded to them. You were the one who told me (among others) that I was wrong - that I could only speculate. You stated - as a fact - that Mick and Coraline did not have a happy day in their marriage.

I just reread my first post and saw that yes, I wrote this...

Thinking there were perfect moments in their marriage, not based on lust, is wrong simply because there wasn't any proof of that in ML, so you guys can only speculate...

For the words highlighted in red I apologize. Sometimes it's hard for me to think in english and write in english at the same time, since it's not ny native language. It came out harsh, and disrespectful to other's opinion, but everything else that I wrote is based on quotes from ML, and how I understood them.
I didn't state that they didn't have a happy day in their marriage!I stated that... We didn't see one single moment where it wasn't about sex and seduction between Mick and Coraline.
Am I wrong? Please, quote one line from ML or point to one scene where it shows that their relationship was NOT revolving around sex, lust etc... even Morgan was trying to get into Mick's pants, not that I blame her ... and the shower scene proves it, am I wrong again?! Sex - is how she got him in the first place, playing hot/cold with his male ego... And she tried to use sex as a "tool" for the "reunion" in the shower in FDL.

I've learned about their marriage from dialogs and VO's...
- "Mick and Coraline's relationship was one of those terrifying, completely self-destructive freak shows that you spend your whole life searching for, knowing it can only end in one or both of you dead."... "She wanted him and got him. And then really worked him over. But eventually the crazy got to be too much, and Mick wanted out... You know, he'd break it off, but Coraline was like a bad drug habit. He kept going back to her."...

-"Intense affair, like a fever"... "It's like an infection. It burns you up. Makes you do things you wouldn't normally do"... - Mick's own words, btw!
"I think Beth is why Coraline has come back now. Because she can't stand to see me happy"...
"Tried that one. It didn't work out so well"...
"33 years... and it did feel like a really long time..."
How many ways are there to interpret those quotes?!

Not a single word about happy moments with Coraline in all 16 episodes!
I could think of few more quotes, but my brain is toasted right now and I'm running a temperature.

Even with staked, dying Coraline on his hands he was talking about HIS needs "She's human... There's a cure... She has a cure..." and in the hospital again "If she dies I'll never know what that was or how she did it"...
No matter how Coraline treated him, she WAS his wife, he asked her to marry him, after all, it means he loved her, and wanted to have her for himself only. (I keep wondering who that dude was in her party house when Mick showed up) And he will care for her, because she was his wife, but he also wouldn't hesitate to stop her if she does something evil and hurts an innocent! Again, I only speculate about it based on the scene with the little Beth...
I never said Beth was an angel! A great fanfic comes to mind "Wolf in Sheep's Clothes", by Guardian*Angel. Beth was portrayed there just the way I think she is...

Phoenix wrote:Liana commented that she saw no proof that Mick and Coraline ever had a happy marriage. Fair enough. But I saw no proof that Beth loved anyone apart from Beth.

Everything Coraline did in the show was to get Mick, from his turning, to have him forever, kidnapping a child to give him a family (how sick is that one act alone, not the family thing, the kidnapping!), and working on the cure to make it permanent (as I wrote before, and it's only my speculation), to have a mortal life with Mick, as he once wanted, when he married her!
It was always about her feelings, and the desire to possess his love by giving him everything she thought would make him happy, and what would make him LOVE her, at ANY price. Isn't it selfish, isn't it evil at some extend?! HOW she achieves her purposes is really scary... kidnapping a child, setting a building on fire, and staging a murder, to get her "happily ever after"... a person like Mick could never accept her actions, because he had completely different moral values! He's not a saint either, but at least he tries to be a better man, make up for whatever he did in the past. Coraline didn' change. And I say it based on what Josef said about her: Mick "You know how dangerous Coraline was", Josef - "I've known her for a century more than you,and she's capable of anything"...
Coraline could have come back any time during those 22 years Mick thought he killed her, even bring him the cure, since she always knew of it's existence... but she came back only when she saw that there might be another woman in Mick's life. Coraline is desperate in her love, it makes her dangerous.

First, Mick didn't admit his love for Beth until FTP, when he was human, the major obstacle between them gone, and to Josef, not Beth... I think Mick wouldn't have told Beth for a while, if not the danger of loosing her... he still had a lot of baggage...

And second...

librarian_7 wrote: As women, we are HEAVILY culturally conditioned not to tell a man "I love you" without hearing it from him first. This is stupid, I know, and a throwback to earlier social conditions (for example, read Austen's Sense and Sensibility, and see how much trouble Marianne gets in over making her feelings known for that turkey, Mr. Willoughby).

And dramatically, what would be more satisfying...Mick saying in Sonata, "Because I love you" and then engaging in a passionate embrace? or Mick saying, "Because I love you" and Beth batting her eyes and replying, "I love you, too"?

Totally agree with librarian!
I also think Beth didn't fall in love with Mick right away... As Sophia said, she was attracted to him, and felt some connection she didn't understand at first... Fever was a huge breakthrough in their relationship, because IMO Beth realized she had deep feelings for Mick when she thought he's dead. And for Mick it was a big deal, because well, it was Beth willingly saving his sorry ass with her blood...
Yes, Beth was jealous of Morgan, aka Coraline, who wouldn't be?! But she also silently walked away in TMC, when Coraline showed up, didn't she?!
Only after she found out Josh was going to propose, she realized with whom her heart was.

Phoenix wrote:Beth didn't hold anything back. Ever. She had no filter whatsoever. She said everything that crossed her mind - including some incredibly cruel things to Mick. She chased Mick - at times in the literal, physical sense. She was never backwards in coming forwards trying to seduce Mick. If she loved him, she would have said it.

Actually, not acting on your true feelings and not saying what you really think is called hypocrisy. As to "cruel things" she said to Mick... I can only guess, you mean "If you hate what you are so much, then why are you go on living?!" Is that right? At first I thought it was kind of harsh thing to say too, but after a while and some thinking I've changed my mind. She asked a philosophical question, the same as looking back at your own life on your deathbed, thinking how you've spent the time you were given... and if you think more about it... really, why would a vampire, who hates what he is, who will continue this existence forever, CHOOSE to live on? He wanted to die, asked Coraline to kill him at first, didn't he? But then he actually asked to be turned, even complained about the limitations of human nature... And what did we get in the end?! One, not so unhappy anymore, vampire... It wasn't HIS choice in the beginning, that was the major issue, IMO.
As to seducing Mick... Beth was under the BC, which made it possible for her to come to Mick and act on her feelings for him, sober she wouldn't dare to... the next morning we got to see the same Beth we knew all along...

Btw... Trevor Munson in one of his interviews described MC's relationship as "dangerous" and "unhealthy", go figure...

God, I can't believe I stayed here so long with high-running temperature ... Gotta take my medicing and try to get some sleep...