Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 7: The Ringer

[Liana]

Through everything we've seen of the relationship between Mick and Coraline, its always about the sex and passion. We never see anything else. Well, there's the fact that she Turned him and taught him to be a vampire and that Mick resented her for it. But those are negatives. Other than the passion I never saw any other positives.

I'm going to disagree with that one. Yes it was definitely about sex and passion - but it was also about love. Coraline thought turning him would make him happy - it was a selfish act but it was also an act of love. She came back, plotted and schemed, killed - not to have sex with Mick, but to be with him, to get him back.

And when it came down to it, she gave him the cure, demanding nothing in return, and sacrificed herself to Lance to save him. That wasn't an act of passion or lust - it was an act of love.

Red

I believe in her own wisted way Coraline loved Mick, and would do anything to make him love her. But right from the beginning she was playing with him, taunting him... We didn't see one single moment where it wasn't about sex and seduction between Mick and Coraline. Thinking there were perfect moments in their marriage, not based on lust, is wrong simply because there wasn't any proof of that in ML, so you guys can only speculate. The only moment was when they stepped into the room as husband and wife, but right then it all crushed... Coraline destroyed her own happiness by not being honest with the man who asked her to marry him, right from the beginning... He married a woman who didn't even exist, who he thought she was, because Coraline turned out to be something completely different, and not even human, let along her character faults...

She came back, plotted and schemed, killed - not to have sex with Mick, but to be with him, to get him back.

Agree, but umm... didn't she use sex to try and get him back?!
She had many oppotunities to tell him she is Coraline, yet she didn't... Nope, she chose to take a shower in his home, left the door open and scattered her clothes in the doorway as an invitation... No, of course it's not about sex at all... Looks like she used the same tool that worked with him in the past...

As to why she came back as Morgan, human?!...
She came back because of Beth, I think Mick was right about it, we should pay more attention to his words.
Why human?... "you seem to like human girls" - her own words...She did say that she became human for Mick, didn't she, and from her own words it was a big deal for her, to give up immortality - "I became human for you. For you... Doesn't it mean anything?!".

She didn't show up at his doorstep with the cure to give it to Mick, to somehow make up for what she did (as she should have, if she was really sorry for turning him, and wanted to make up for it), she showed up playing another game with him... Why? - Because she wanted him to fall in love with her again, to love human Coraline, the one he thought he once married... That's why she was working on the cure to make it permanent, and when in TMC Mick said "you could continue with your research, right?!" She hopefully said "WE could"... By giving Mick the cure she not only tried to somehow make up for turning him, but to also show him "good Coraline" side, this also goes to her sacrifice to Lance, she didn't only sacrifice herself out of her love for Mick, Mick accused her of setting him up, she was very upset and afraid that he was thinking that about her, because then it means all her game with human Coraline was for nothing... But human or vampire, she's the same Coraline, with lies, half truths and mind games... (even in the end, she couldn't be honest with him and tell him she's part of that family too).

Coraline is a tragic character, because yes, all she wanted was to attain the love of this man, but at what price?!... To love Coraline would mean to become equal, level with her, someone like Mick could never accept her actions! They are completely different people, with different moral values! For 33 years Mick was on and off with her, tried to make the relationship work, to find positive sides in the woman he married, to find something to cling to, to make it last, to stay... They had 33 years worth of tries, and it didn't work, as Mick said, "It's not meant to be. Never was"... At last he let the past go...
And I honestly believe that Mick was telling the truth when he said "Maybe I would have killed her anyway..." And then Josef's words "it can only end in one or both of you dead..."

I believe Coraline would never give up on her attempts to get Mick back, and judging by how she did it before, innocent people would suffer because of her. If she doesn't stop on her own (and I'm sure she wouldn't, especially with Beth in the picture), then the only other way is to stop her. That's how I see Coraline, sorry. Woman, obsessed with her love, who would do absolutely anything to get what she craves... She is a tragic character, but she made her choices, as Lance said.

Question about The Ringer... Why do you guys think Coraline insisted they check the cemetery? Did she want to get Mick ambushed for "killing" her 23 years ago, or was it all to make him go crazy again?!

[wpgrace]

The problem with the Simone feeding was that she did get it that time! He was totally busted being a naughty boy and their dating relationship was just getting off the ground. In the "intense affair" talk, I didn't see him trying so hard to connect, just flustered and then dismissive when she couldn't keep up. He was trying to get a handle on everything that was going on in his head and didn't have the energy to explain to her to help her understand.

Yeah, Beth got that for sure, but her miscommunication came in the whole conversation after in front of the frat house. Him saying it wasn't a big deal and yet in Fever, it WAS a big deal.

With Simone, he had no feelings for her, so in his mind...no big deal. Feeding from Beth was a big deal since he had feelings for her.

By connect, I mean, in a communicative way, not emotionally. Sorry I didn't explain that very well. He wanted her to understand and she wasn't.

Communication wasn't always Mick's strong point...

Given that, I think he gets props for talking to Beth AT ALL about his feelings for Cora... and his mixed-up feelings about Morgan... tho when she asked him if he were sorry that Morgan WASN"T Cora and he shut down like that... he said a lot more than words ever would...

Now the Simone-tasting party... no props to him at all there. He really does need to talk to the girl... but again, that's in a later ep...

But no, communicating wasn't his best attribute... tho I love the way he communicated with us in the v/o's!

[Phoenix]

...We didn't see one single moment where it wasn't about sex and seduction between Mick and Coraline. Thinking there were perfect moments in their marriage, not based on lust, is wrong simply because there wasn't any proof of that in ML, so you guys can only speculate...

Liana, they are fighting words.

You are entitled to your opinion - but so are we all. We barely saw any of Mick and Coraline's thirty-three year marriage in the show, so you too are speculating - only your belief if that there were NOT "perfect moments in their marriage". The truth is that we just don't know. Since there was no second season, all we can do is imagine what may have been revealed over time. Please keep that in mind before telling other members that they are wrong.

We all watched the same show, yet we interpret things differently.

[Fleur de Lisa]

Isn't it amazing how one season of a show can give us all such profound feelings??

You all know where my loyalties lie in the whole Mick/Beth/Cora deal. However, I can certainly appreciate where others see differences in the Mick/Cora dynamic. That is the power of being human and having your own mind and preferences. Bob knows it would be so boring if we all viewed everything exactly the same.

Where I see Cora as treating Mick as nothing more than a toy, a possession that didn't want to be had after his turning, Phee may see it as a deep love with someone Cora wanted to share forever with. Is either of us right or wrong? Hell no! Do I love Phee any less for her viewpoint? Again, hell no! It is all in how we perceived the relationships to be, and I for one enjoy the differences--especially in ML fic. That alone allows for multiple situations to be explored. I love the fact that we alone, here, have created layers to this show that the producers/actors, etc were unable to.

I enjoy being taken out of my little box and being forced to see things in a different light. It makes reading all this so worthwhile.

There never will be a definitive answer to all of the questions regarding Mick/Cora/Beth and even Josef. And I loooove that fact!

Viva la difference!

[mwj01]

We saw moments in present day when Mick and Coraline were about more than just sex and seduction. There were underlying moments of a bond, history, comfortableness, mutual understanding and possibly friendship. And he married her because he loved her. He didn't marry a woman who didn't exist even given the vampire reveal. He was immediately drawn to her again as Morgan, fully aware at this point that he had married a vampire. Yes, I'll speculate that something more than sex and seduction was drawing him back to her for 33 years and then again later when he met her as Morgan. The man could have had anyone he wanted and yet he walked back to her as much as he walked away from her.

When he said "It's not meant to be. Never was." after Coraline was taken away, it could be implied that up until then, maybe he was recently thinking otherwise. Why feel the need to say it if it was so obvious? Maybe he was telling himself it was all wrapped up nice and neat with a bow, but I doubt that would every really be the case with Mick and Coraline. She was slated for season 2 and would have been back to mix it up some more.

BTW, don't we all speculate about relationships and other aspects of the show? It's across the board.

Edited: Spelling error.

[Liana]

...We didn't see one single moment where it wasn't about sex and seduction between Mick and Coraline. Thinking there were perfect moments in their marriage, not based on lust, is wrong simply because there wasn't any proof of that in ML, so you guys can only speculate...

Liana, they are fighting words.

You are entitled to your opinion - but so are we all. We barely saw any of Mick and Coraline's thirty-three year marriage in the show, so you too are speculating - only your belief if that there were NOT "perfect moments in their marriage". The truth is that we just don't know. Since there was no second season, all we can do is imagine what may have been revealed over time. Please keep that in mind before telling other members that they are wrong.

We all watched the same show, yet we interpret things differently.

Exactly! I do make my assumptions based on what I saw in the show, not on what could have been there! If you noticed, I quoted lines from the show, as I like to analyse scenes.
Not one of Mick's flashbacks showed us anything other than desire, seduction, lust and ultimately betrayal from Mick's POV! Even Josef-a bystander, who knew Coraline long before Mick and observed their marriage, said "Mick and Coraline's relationship was one of those terrifying, completely self-destructive freak shows that you spend your whole life searching for, knowing it can only end in one or both of you dead."... "She wanted him and got him. And then really worked him over. But eventually the crazy got to be too much, and Mick wanted out... You know, he'd break it off, but Coraline was like a bad drug habit. He kept going back to her."...
Now, can a good marriage be described as "bad drug habit"?!

Fanfic is a completely different thing, and it's very biased too. Honestly, I love reading fanfic, rarely Cora-centric, but I like ML stories a lot! And there are so many wonderful stories and writers who put our beloved characters in every possible and impossible situations, and reading those stories is a delight to me!

We saw moments in present day when Mick and Coraline were about more than just sex and seduction. There were underlying moments of a bond, history, comfortableness, mutual understanding and possibly friendship. And we married her because he loved her. He didn't marry a woman who didn't exist even given the vampire reveal. He was immediately drawn to her again as Morgan, fully aware at this point that he had married a vampire. Yes, I'll speculate that something more than sex and seduction was drawing him back to her for 33 and then again later when he met her as Morgan. The man could have had anyone he wanted and yet he walked back to her as much as he walked away from her.

As to Morgan... First, Mick wasn't sure if it was Coraline or not, and all along he was trying to solve that puzzle, I did't see any "underlying bond, history, comfortableness, mutual understanding and possibly friendship"... could you specify, what you meant? Coraline was throwing clues his way all along, and he was trying to find the truth, that's all I saw. I don't deny that he loved her, but he fell in love with the woman who turned out to be something completely different from what he thought. And he spent the next 33 years trying to make the relationship work, because he married her, after all. He's a man from different time, keep that in mind!
And Mick couldn't have anyone he wanted. He was staying away from humans in general, let along having romanic relationships with them, and about female vampires - "tried that one, didn't work out so well..."

And as I wrote previosly, I think she came back as Morgan to make Mick fall in love with her, human Coraline, he thought he once married! Why else would she do it? If she wanted to make up for turning him, she could have just come to him with the cure, not play games... As Alex said in one of his interviews about their marriage "you think you'll get one thing and you get another". I think Coraline thought if they couldn't make the relationship work as immortals, they could try as mortals. That's why she was working on the cure to make it permanent... "Maybe love can't exist without mortality", obviously she was thinking about her and Mick, while Mick was thinking about him and Beth, I think...

But I don't think the relationship with human Coraline would have worked either. Because she can be human, but still she will be the same Coraline with her schemes and mind games, Morgan just proved it! These two people are just too different... How could Mick, a man with "hero" complex, protective of innocents, close his eyes and pretend not to see her actions? Coraline reminds me of Lola, "exciting"... as Josef described her,... and also "dangerous"...

[wpgrace]

So true ladies... Oh god Bob... we all totally speculate about many things, because we had only 16 eps...

Many speculate that, while the show only showed us one scene of Mick and Cora fighting like tigers, that they probably had done that before, and probably not just the once...

Many speculate that when Mick noted, a couple times, that he had once been a monster, that this means he likely killed humans for food.

Many speculate that when he said he had to give up his family, it meant they began to look tasty.

Many speculate that Mick went off freshies after rescuing Baby Beth. Other speculate there was some unfortunate event that created that life change.

Many speculate that when the door closed after Sonata, that Mick and Beth had sex. Or that they lived happily ever after. Or that he turned her. Or that she lived a mortal life and died... but that somehow he was transformed by her love and not angsty anymore.

None of this was ever shown... we have only speculation for any of it.

I, however, did SEE tender and joyful moments between Mick and Morgan, and Mick and Cora, in FdL and in TMC... this is not a threat to those who want Mick and Beth to work... and hopefully those who feel threatened by any tenderness or love between Mick and Cora can kinda learn to relax about that...

Cora is not a threat to MickBeth lovers because she wasn't a threat to Beth... to BabyBeth, yes, but Mick... handled... that situation.

To adult Beth, Coraline may have come back and taken photos and stalked Mick and Beth, but she never threatened Beth physically, and had plenty of opportunity to do Beth harm, yet didn't. And Cora graciously accepted Mick's choice, in TMC, and gave him the cure knowing full well to whom he would run. She made a play for him, no doubt... so would I have done. But she loved him and she let him go. And sacrificed herself to do so. Moreover, Cora is not a threat to MickBeth because he chose Beth... and she accepted that choice.

So seeing humane elements in Cora, those of us who do, does not preclude Mick and Beth being happy and safe. Tho I guess it is a testament to Shannyn's portrayal that she unnerved so many fans in so very few scenes...



.

[Liana]

Many speculate that, while the show only showed us one scene of Mick and Cora fighting like tigers, that they probably had done that before, and probably not just the once...

Many speculate that when Mick noted, a couple times, that he had once been a monster, that this means he likely killed humans for food.

Many speculate that when he said he had to give up his family, it meant they began to look tasty.

Many speculate that Mick went off freshies after rescuing Baby Beth. Other speculate there was some unfortunate event that created that life change.

Many speculate that when the door closed after Sonata, that Mick and Beth had sex. Or that they lived happily ever after. Or that he turned her. Or that she lived a mortal life and died... but that somehow he was transformed by her love and not angsty anymore.

That's what fanfic is for! We have no idea waht would have happened in season 2, grrrr... that network...
We only had 16 epi's and everything that was told in them, that was real ML, everything else is just speculation. I miss ML, damn it!

Though I am a MickBether, but I would have been happy with Coraline and Mick together, if I could accept her actions and her ways and means, if Mick would have been happy with her, but he wasn't, so excuse me, I love my vamp happy and in peace with himself!

[Phoenix]

...We didn't see one single moment where it wasn't about sex and seduction between Mick and Coraline. Thinking there were perfect moments in their marriage, not based on lust, is wrong simply because there wasn't any proof of that in ML, so you guys can only speculate...

Liana, they are fighting words.

You are entitled to your opinion - but so are we all. We barely saw any of Mick and Coraline's thirty-three year marriage in the show, so you too are speculating - only your belief if that there were NOT "perfect moments in their marriage". The truth is that we just don't know. Since there was no second season, all we can do is imagine what may have been revealed over time. Please keep that in mind before telling other members that they are wrong.

We all watched the same show, yet we interpret things differently.

Exactly! I do make my assumptions based on what I saw in the show, not on what could have been there! If you noticed, I quoted lines from the show, as I like to analyse scenes...

For the record, I did read your entire post, I just pruned the part I copied to avoid quoting increasingly long posts.

You are free to draw conclusions from what you saw in the show. So am I. Consequently, based on what was in the show - as distinct from what could have been there - I don't believe Beth loved Mick. She never once said it. And please don't tell me she admitted to "having feelings" for him - that is not the same as love.

It's canon that Mick said he loved Beth.

It's canon that Mick chose Beth.

It's also canon that Mick and Coraline were married for thirty-three years; which means that Mick was (a) incredibly shallow; (b) a monster, too; (c) a man in love; or (d) all of them.

We see what we want to see; believe what we want to believe.

[mwj01]

As Alex said in one of his interviews about their marriage "you think you'll get one thing and you get another".

In answer to your request for examples of a bond, comfortableness, etc., Grace mentioned those tender moments I referred to showing more to Mick and Coraline's relationship than what you see. I only have a few minutes before I have to run out, but I'll just add, since you mentioned Alex's comments in an interview, that he also said in interviews (at least two) that Coraline was a great love for Mick, that he has love for her and that whether the fans like it or not, for them to remember that she is the woman that he loved and married. That was in answer to why Mick can't just let go of Coraline.

[GuardianAngel]

See, this is why I love Coraline as a character. She encourages such passionate responses.

There were many gaps left in the story and we all fill them as we want. Personally, I enjoy reading how everyone interprets things said or left unsaid.

If you go by only what was actually said on the show, yes, Mick loved both Coraline and Beth because he told them so. We never saw either female tell him they loved him. Did they love him? I want to say 'how could they not?' But, truthfully, there is room for doubt. There is no doubt, however, that they were both physically attracted to him and cared for him.

[coco]

Oh what a discussion I've missed. I hate being offline so very much.

This episode was bound to cause a lot of discussion as it's the first big threat to the Mick/Beth dynamic that was built up over the first 6 episodes. Everyone knows which couple I root for on a daily basis but I disagree completely with anyone who thinks there was no love between Mick and Coraline. They would not have had a 33 year marriage based on purely lust and passion - never going to happen. There are a lot of things I'd like to point to to explain my feelings on this but they all happen in later episodes so I don't want to go there here. I also truly believe that for Mick to have chosen her, married her and stayed married to her for as long as he did there has to be something in Coraline for that reason alone. It may not have lasted and she may have made a huge mistake in turning him without giving him the choice but that doesn't mean there wasn't love there on both parts.

I'm also a firm believer that you can root for Mick & Beth and see their time together and their relationship in its own right without feeling threatened by the Mick/Cora dynamic. Two very different relationships that the show also portrayed very differently. We never got to see the same kind of passion from Mick & Beth that we saw with MickCora but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. I saw the potential of their passion in spades but the Mick/Beth relationship was in it's early stages so we never got to see any scenes quite like the MickCora scenes while the MickCora relationship we got to see had 33 years of history in it and they got to show that through their scenes together.

I hope no one will mind if I jump back to the scene when Mick & Beth are talking in the FOS after his encounter with Morgan in the cemetary. I've always felt that Mick was extremely harsh with Beth in this scene and the harshness was uncalled for. He may have been unnerved and uptight after the encounter but to take it out on Beth quite the way he did was always a moment of sadness for me.

I'm rambling again so I'm going to stop now.

[Liana]

For the record, I did read your entire post, I just pruned the part I copied to avoid quoting increasingly long posts.

You are free to draw conclusions from what you saw in the show. So am I. Consequently, based on what was in the show - as distinct from what could have been there - I don't believe Beth loved Mick. She never once said it. And please don't tell me she admitted to "having feelings" for him - that is not the same as love.

Hmm... marrying a man without being honest with him and even not telling him WHAT she is, turning him without his consent,... kidnapping a child... that is all love, right?! Only because she said "I love you", and not once, if I remember correctly ?! But feeding a dying vampire barely knowing him, trusting him her life,... saving and helping him few times doesn't speak of love? And I'm actually glad Beth wasn't eloquent about her feelings, her actions speak volumes!
By the way, for the record, I didn't say Coraline didn't love Mick, and I didn't say Mick didn't love her either! He married her, and spent 33 years trying to make the relationship work, even after her betrayal! Please don't twist my words!

It's canon that Mick said he loved Beth.

It's canon that Mick chose Beth.

It's also canon that Mick and Coraline were married for thirty-three years; which means that Mick was (a) incredibly shallow; (b) a monster, too; (c) a man in love; or (d) all of them.
Look above!
We see what we want to see; believe what we want to believe.

Exactly! I posted my thoughts and my opinion, yet many respond to it trying to prove me wrong. From a discussion it turnes into some kind of a quarrel. I apologize if my assumptions hurt someone's feelings, I only meant to share my thoughts about their relationship. I won't post here again.
It all comes to one thing, we haven't had enough episodes.

[GuardianAngel]

Exactly! I posted my thoughts and my opinion, yet many respond to it trying to prove me wrong. From a discussion it turnes into some kind of a quarrel. I apologize if my assumptions hurt someone's feelings, I only meant to share my thoughts about their relationship. I won't post here again.
It all comes to one thing, we haven't had enough episodes.

Liana, please do not leave. You opinions are not only welcome but appreciated.

This thread is an episode DISCUSSION! All views and opinions are welcome. No one is to say that someone else is wrong - we can agree to disagree.

[wpgrace]

Liana,no none is trying to take your voice, but we have merely posted that YOUR opinions, which you stated as if they were fact, were also only speculation... you posted that our opinions were purely speculation, and that things we saw weren't there.

We DID see Cora showing love, compassion, and tenderness to Mick. Even if you didn't.

You saw Beth and Mick had passion. I never saw that. So as Phee said, we didn't necessarily all see the same things... but we do need to respect the dialogue... the fun at this point is in the dialogue after all.... there are no more eps to rejoice in...

But you might want to infer, by the number of people, including fellow MickBethers, who have noted that they also saw love with Mick and Cora beyond mere lust, that perhaps your own post didn't really say what you meant it too... maybe it didn't read as you intended...