Liana, I didn't twist your words. I responded to them. You were the one who told me (among others) that I was wrong - that I could only speculate. You stated - as a fact - that Mick and Coraline did not have a happy day in their marriage.Liana wrote:Exactly! I posted my thoughts and my opinion, yet many respond to it trying to prove me wrong. From a discussion it turnes into some kind of a quarrel. I apologize if my assumptions hurt someone's feelings, I only meant to share my thoughts about their relationship. I won't post here again.Phoenix wrote:Liana wrote:Phoenix wrote: For the record, I did read your entire post, I just pruned the part I copied to avoid quoting increasingly long posts.
You are free to draw conclusions from what you saw in the show. So am I. Consequently, based on what was in the show - as distinct from what could have been there - I don't believe Beth loved Mick. She never once said it. And please don't tell me she admitted to "having feelings" for him - that is not the same as love.
Hmm... marrying a man without being honest with him and even not telling him WHAT she is, turning him without his consent,... kidnapping a child... that is all love, right?! Only because she said "I love you", and not once, if I remember correctly ?!But feeding a dying vampire barely knowing him, trusting him her life,... saving and helping him few times doesn't speak of love? And I'm actually glad Beth wasn't eloquent about her feelings, her actions speak volumes!
By the way, for the record, I didn't say Coraline didn't love Mick, and I didn't say Mick didn't love her either! He married her, and spent 33 years trying to make the relationship work, even after her betrayal! Please don't twist my words!
It's canon that Mick said he loved Beth.
It's canon that Mick chose Beth.
It's also canon that Mick and Coraline were married for thirty-three years; which means that Mick was (a) incredibly shallow; (b) a monster, too; (c) a man in love; or (d) all of them.
Look above!
We see what we want to see; believe what we want to believe.
It all comes to one thing, we haven't had enough episodes.
Liana wrote:I believe in her own wisted way Coraline loved Mick, and would do anything to make him love her. But right from the beginning she was playing with him, taunting him... We didn't see one single moment where it wasn't about sex and seduction between Mick and Coraline. Thinking there were perfect moments in their marriage, not based on lust, is wrong simply because there wasn't any proof of that in ML, so you guys can only speculate. The only moment was when they stepped into the room as husband and wife, but right then it all crushed... Coraline destroyed her own happiness by not being honest with the man who asked her to marry him, right from the beginning... He married a woman who didn't even exist, who he thought she was, because Coraline turned out to be something completely different, and not even human, let along her character faults...redwinter101 wrote:I'm going to disagree with that one. Yes it was definitely about sex and passion - but it was also about love. Coraline thought turning him would make him happy - it was a selfish act but it was also an act of love. She came back, plotted and schemed, killed - not to have sex with Mick, but to be with him, to get him back.GuardianAngel wrote:Through everything we've seen of the relationship between Mick and Coraline, its always about the sex and passion. We never see anything else. Well, there's the fact that she Turned him and taught him to be a vampire and that Mick resented her for it. But those are negatives. Other than the passion I never saw any other positives.
And when it came down to it, she gave him the cure, demanding nothing in return, and sacrificed herself to Lance to save him. That wasn't an act of passion or lust - it was an act of love.
Red
Agree, but umm... didn't she use sex to try and get him back?!She came back, plotted and schemed, killed - not to have sex with Mick, but to be with him, to get him back.
She had many oppotunities to tell him she is Coraline, yet she didn't... Nope, she chose to take a shower in his home, left the door open and scattered her clothes in the doorway as an invitation...
As to why she came back as Morgan, human?!...
She came back because of Beth, I think Mick was right about it, we should pay more attention to his words.
Why human?... "you seem to like human girls" - her own words...She did say that she became human for Mick, didn't she, and from her own words it was a big deal for her, to give up immortality - "I became human for you. For you... Doesn't it mean anything?!".
She didn't show up at his doorstep with the cure to give it to Mick, to somehow make up for what she did (as she should have, if she was really sorry for turning him, and wanted to make up for it), she showed up playing another game with him... Why? - Because she wanted him to fall in love with her again, to love human Coraline, the one he thought he once married... That's why she was working on the cure to make it permanent, and when in TMC Mick said "you could continue with your research, right?!" She hopefully said "WE could"... By giving Mick the cure she not only tried to somehow make up for turning him, but to also show him "good Coraline" side, this also goes to her sacrifice to Lance, she didn't only sacrifice herself out of her love for Mick, Mick accused her of setting him up, she was very upset and afraid that he was thinking that about her, because then it means all her game with human Coraline was for nothing... But human or vampire, she's the same Coraline, with lies, half truths and mind games... (even in the end, she couldn't be honest with him and tell him she's part of that family too).
Coraline is a tragic character, because yes, all she wanted was to attain the love of this man, but at what price?!... To love Coraline would mean to become equal, level with her, someone like Mick could never accept her actions! They are completely different people, with different moral values! For 33 years Mick was on and off with her, tried to make the relationship work, to find positive sides in the woman he married, to find something to cling to, to make it last, to stay... They had 33 years worth of tries, and it didn't work, as Mick said, "It's not meant to be. Never was"... At last he let the past go...
And I honestly believe that Mick was telling the truth when he said "Maybe I would have killed her anyway..." And then Josef's words "it can only end in one or both of you dead..."
I believe Coraline would never give up on her attempts to get Mick back, and judging by how she did it before, innocent people would suffer because of her. If she doesn't stop on her own (and I'm sure she wouldn't, especially with Beth in the picture), then the only other way is to stop her. That's how I see Coraline, sorry. Woman, obsessed with her love, who would do absolutely anything to get what she craves... She is a tragic character, but she made her choices, as Lance said.
Question about The Ringer... Why do you guys think Coraline insisted they check the cemetery? Did she want to get Mick ambushed for "killing" her 23 years ago, or was it all to make him go crazy again?!
My fanfic index. My banner art. He also said he was in love with Beth and that could surpass that. He also threw in the "My Beth" because he had "such love" for her.that he also said in interviews (at least two) that Coraline was a great love for Mick, that he has love for her and that whether the fans like it or not, for them to remember that she is the woman that he loved and married
I don't believe Beth loved Mick. She never once said it. And please don't tell me she admitted to "having feelings" for him - that is not the same as love.
See, I didn't see any of that. I saw a man anxious for the "cure" and still not totally trustworthy of it's source. JMO.I, however, did SEE tender and joyful moments between Mick and Morgan, and Mick and Cora, in FdL and in TMC... this is not a threat to those who want Mick and Beth to work... and hopefully those who feel threatened by any tenderness or love between Mick and Cora can kinda learn to relax about that...
coco wrote:Grace did you not even see the potential of the Mick & Beth passion?
In all seriousness Liana I really don't think anyone is trying to stop you contributing to this discussion. We all have very varied opinions about this beautiful subject Moonlight and the biggest discussions always come about when Mick/Beth/Cora is involved. There are LOTS of things we never got to see on the show so we all have to speculate. There's no other way.
Beth didn't hold anything back. Ever. She had no filter whatsoever. She said everything that crossed her mind - including some incredibly cruel things to Mick. She chased Mick - at times in the literal, physical sense. She was never backwards in coming forwards trying to seduce Mick. If she loved him, she would have said it.tecc wrote:I don't believe Beth loved Mick. She never once said it. And please don't tell me she admitted to "having feelings" for him - that is not the same as love.
Kind of harsh, being it took Mick 13 eps to tell someone that he loved her and another 3 before he finally told her, I don't blame her for withholding a little bit.
My fanfic index. My banner art. 
Phoenix wrote:Beth didn't hold anything back. Ever. She had no filter whatsoever. She said everything that crossed her mind - including some incredibly cruel things to Mick. She chased Mick - at times in the literal, physical sense. She was never backwards in coming forwards trying to seduce Mick. If she loved him, she would have said it.tecc wrote:I don't believe Beth loved Mick. She never once said it. And please don't tell me she admitted to "having feelings" for him - that is not the same as love.
Kind of harsh, being it took Mick 13 eps to tell someone that he loved her and another 3 before he finally told her, I don't blame her for withholding a little bit.
Liana commented that she saw no proof that Mick and Coraline ever had a happy marriage. Fair enough. But I saw no proof that Beth loved anyone apart from Beth.
See, now I could say the same thing about Coraline.But I saw no proof that Beth loved anyone apart from Beth.
She was very selfish IMO but I suppose having Mick around could do that to a person. 
That was my original point. We all see different things in the same show. Problems arise when people start stating opinions as irrefutable facts.tecc wrote:Phoenix wrote:Beth didn't hold anything back. Ever. She had no filter whatsoever. She said everything that crossed her mind - including some incredibly cruel things to Mick. She chased Mick - at times in the literal, physical sense. She was never backwards in coming forwards trying to seduce Mick. If she loved him, she would have said it.tecc wrote:I don't believe Beth loved Mick. She never once said it. And please don't tell me she admitted to "having feelings" for him - that is not the same as love.
Kind of harsh, being it took Mick 13 eps to tell someone that he loved her and another 3 before he finally told her, I don't blame her for withholding a little bit.
Liana commented that she saw no proof that Mick and Coraline ever had a happy marriage. Fair enough. But I saw no proof that Beth loved anyone apart from Beth.See, now I could say the same thing about Coraline.But I saw no proof that Beth loved anyone apart from Beth.
Beth was thrown into a situation that people don't find themselves in - kidnapped as a child for a possible turning, meeting her guardian angel as a grown woman, re-meeting the kidnapper......etc
It's all a matter of who you are rooting for IMO, what you see and what you don't see.
My fanfic index. My banner art. Hmmm....I didn't see anything where anyone said that anyone was wrong. I saw some things posted that were fact, what was given to us from the show which to me still doesn't paint Coraline in a good light which IMO is what the writers were after - the rest is pure speculation on everyone's part. I guess how you interpret it is the key.That was my original point. We all see different things in the same show. Problems arise when people start stating opinions as irrefutable facts.
You and Liana relate to Beth. I don't. We are all still entitled to our own opinions and speculations - without being told we are wrong.
On a personal note: it's now after 4 am and it is freezing here. I am not backing down on my comments - I'm just going to bed. My fanfic index. My banner art. 
Moonlightsonata wrote:Not looking to get into the obviously strong Mick/Cora versus Mick/Beth feelings in this post. In an earlier post I think Coco mentioned that Mick didn't treat Beth well after the cemetery incident. I haven't seen the Ringer as many times as some and wanted to talk about that a little more. Guess my age is getting to me but maybe some more information on that. Thanks.
Moonlightsonata.
) and I have no issue with that as it was natural and understandable just all the stuff before it I thought was a little cruel on his part.