Moonlight Episode Discussion - Ep 7: The Ringer

[darlingcat]

Liana,
Great and very thoroughly documented points, dear
As far as Trevor is concerned, he actually based Coraline's character on a former girlfriend who broke up with him

[redwinter101]

Liana, that is a very interesting point - although I think there is a little contradiction in some of what you say, about who loved who and whether their feelings were genuine.

One of the key moments for me was Mick telling Beth, "She was my wife." They had had a relationship - and after all that had happened between them, Mick's response to Beth, the woman he loves (even if he hasn't admitted it yet), was that phrase.

Of course there are other moments - both of care and despair, hatred and love, but for me, this was particularly.

dc, and everyone else, I would urge you to go back and read my earlier post. This thread is a discussion, not an argument to see who can "win".

One final thought. Mick isn't a child. Once his initial dependence on Coraline to teach him how to survive was over, he could have just walked away. He didn't. His reasons are open to endless speculation of course - using all of the information referenced in this thread and elsewhere, but to me, that is significant.

Red

[allegrita]

One of the things I value most about Moonlight is that almost no one -- not Mick, not Josef, not Coraline, not Beth -- not even lesser characters like Josh or Carl or Guillermo or even Sam the hacker -- was presented as a simple, one-dimensional character. They had positive and negative aspects. They all acted selflessly at times and selfishly at others. They had little unexpected quirks that made us pay attention. That's why Moonlight caught us up in its world--because the inhabitants of that world felt real to us.

This little essay reflects my own views, and I understand that not everyone shares my opinion. I respect everyone's right to their opinion, but I think it's important to think about.

I believe that it's a disservice to the characters of Coraline and Beth to interpret either of them one-dimensionally, either as purely "good and true" or purely "selfish and manipulative" (and you could paint either character with either label, depending on how you choose to interpret what you saw on the show).

Both women were damaged souls whose strength of character allowed them to survive horrific experiences without being devastated by them. Both were conflicted regarding Mick. Both drew his interest and his passion, in different ways, and both returned it--again, in different ways. They sacrificed greatly for his sake, and yet they did things to hurt him. They both laid their hearts on the line for him, and they both did things he would consider to be betrayals.

Beth obviously felt a connection to Mick immediately upon meeting him. Have you ever met someone and felt that instant, deep connection? I have... and that can sometimes lead you to behave in a way that isn't kind to others (as Beth truly was unkind to Josh). Yes, Beth was definitely a danger junkie, but I don't think she would have reacted the same way to any other dashing stranger who swept in and caught her eye... she reacted to Mick because of the bond they shared. Mick said it himself at the end of Fever: "Or maybe we've always been connected." Did she blow hot and cold at Mick? You bet she did. Her heart kept leading her one way, and her head the other. Josh was always the logical choice; but logic doesn't work against that connection.

No passion between Mick and Beth? Did you see that kiss on the roof?! Yes, they were at the very beginning, and their relationship couldn't possibly be like Mick's and Coraline's. For one thing, Mick had to overcome 20 years of seeing her as a little girl growing up. And partly because of that, he had a tendency to speak down to her--but she was already teaching him that she was worthy of his respect. Their attraction and growing passion burned brightly through the guilt and the awkwardness, and they were figuring it out.

Coraline was obviously captivated by Mick the first time she saw him, and she allowed him to batter down her defenses--she reveled in the wildness she brought out in him. As for whether or not she loved him? Look at it this way: she dared to marry him, against the wishes of her powerful family. On their wedding night, when he said "I'll love you forever," she asked him again, and he reaffirmed it. She took it literally, unfortunately, but she did ask. Was turning him without explaining things a horrible mistake? Sure, and Coraline would be the first one to tell you so. But think about what she did from a vampire's point of view (a vamp who loved being a vamp). She loved him enough to grant him eternity as her husband, including a place in her aristocratic and immensely powerful family. And after he rescued Beth and left her for dead, she loved him enough to forgive him for burning her alive (well, undead). Just think about that for a second. We know from show canon that vampires feel pain when they're injured, so just imagine the hideous agony she suffered at his hands. Could you forgive someone for doing that to you if you didn't love him? I don't think so. Coraline loved Mick enough to steal the cure from her family, use it herself--giving up all of the powers she herself held so dear--and try to lure him back to her. Was she manipulative? You bet your boots she was. Did she mess with his head by simulating the very fire that he "killed" her with? Yep. But after what he put her through, I think she felt he had it coming. Heck, I'm a MickBeth shipper, and I think he had it coming. The very least he could've done was to kill her cleanly with a blade, rather than leaving her to burn.

I don't want to get too far ahead, but I also believe that Coraline gave Mick the mortal cure, saved Mick from her brother, and put herself in Lance's hands, allowing herself to be taken to who knows what hideous fate, out of love for Mick. Just as Beth fed Mick her blood in the desert in order to save his life, Coraline gave herself up in order to save his life.

Coraline and Beth are almost like counterparts, and they both loved him in their own ways, just as he loved both of them.

Oh, and one more thing. Don't forget that this is a TV show.

I tend to forget that myself when I get all impassioned... and YES, isn't it a tribute to the wonderfulness of Moonlight that it affects us all this way?! But it's not worth making enemies over. I'm giving up on saying that it's not worth losing sleep over, because I've been losing sleep over it since I fell in love with it and started writing when I should be sleeping...but we're all here because we love the show so much. We need to remember to be kind to each other and try not to give and/or take offense. It's all about respect and kindness.

[Fleur de Lisa]

alle---thank Bob for your post. I have already written and deleted 2 responses. I am veering between sadness and just plain being pissed off as to the tone that has taken place here. My main point in both of my posts was what you stated: It's just a tv show, folks. Take a breath.

I would never try to change someone's mind/opinion. I may not understand it, but I respect it. I would ask for the same.

If you are upset, type out your response, and save it. Go back to it later, and if you feel the same way, by all means, let it rip. But please, people, no more of this. No more comments that seem to support your point, when you are falling down the same darn rabbit hole. It's not only upsetting, it's laughable.

[darkstarrising]

Beautifully said, alle

[darlingcat]

Great thoughts, alle

dc, and everyone else, I would urge you to go back and read my earlier post. This thread is a discussion, not an argument to see who can "win".

I did read all posts, dear. I happened to agree with a certain point of view and felt free to express my opinion in a respectful way. That's what makes discussions lively, after all.

[wpgrace]

Great thoughts, alle

dc, and everyone else, I would urge you to go back and read my earlier post. This thread is a discussion, not an argument to see who can "win".

I did read all posts, dear. I happened to agree with a certain point of view and felt free to express my opinion in a respectful way. That's what makes discussions lively, after all.

Well yes and no, dear DC...

Alle's post IS lovely and balanced... hers usually are... Others have said similar so far in this thread... and Alle took the ground that Redwinter and GA and many of us have... there were redeeming qualities and problematic qualities in both his women, and in both his relationships...

But DO recall that we are discussing The Ringer in this thread. It is one of two MickCora-centric eps. And thus is very interesting in that it is one of only the two. And interesting to many of us because it begins to show some of the facets of their relationship... we will see more of that in FdL... and a little more still in TMC... but there were many facets... to her and to MickCora's interactions...

In watching this ep, many of us who have been avidly following Mick's adventures... and his budding romance with Beth... also begin to see how important this older relationship is... and to see how fascinating this older relationship was... and at the end we learn, still is. He hasn't let go... he thought he had, but he hasn't. He wants to have let go, but he hasn't. That is FASCINATING! To have a hold on Mick like that makes Cora fascinating... and to me it makes Mick even more interesting. This doesn't threaten Beth... but he's still gotta work thru stuff here... amazing.

But as someone who enjoys BOTH MickBeth AND MickCora... I must say that many of the commenters here seem to have wanted to shut down the discussion and make it more a referendum on Cora vs. Beth, seem in fact to have come to the thread as if called for a roll call, specifically in order to weigh in for Beth and against Cora... and as I said in a previous post, that's a false debate. As Red said, it's not a poll. The show still runs the way it ran, and like it or not, The Ringer is still a MickCora centric ep.

As one of the few eps in which Cora really appears, and in which we get to see them together in "real time" rather than in flashback, I would like to be able to discuss this interesting relationship... it's good and bad qualities, and there were both, Alle said remember... without constantly having someone post, essentially, that there were no good qualities to her or the relationship or challenging those who have remarked upon those kinder gentler qualities with some rather harsh language. I think most of us have agreed that there were lovely moments for MickCora and that she loved him, in her own way, but still it was love to her. And NO ONE has ever posted there weren't problematic issues with Cora and with MickCora. But there were fascinating and amazing moments too. But the militaristic tone, that anything good said about Cora somehow diminishes Beth or his relationship with Beth is just making this not a discussion but a battleground.

And that is mostly (I said mostly, not all) coming from a few of the folks ( I said a few, not all) who really hate Cora. No one is trying to make anyone love Coraline, or even like her... she is what she is, but that doesn't mean 2D villain. They didn't write her that way; it wouldn't have been interesting and they meant for her to be interesting... and to me, she IS! However, if she makes anyone THAT uncomfortable (and she IS just a fictional character; she didn't really hurt anybody), perhaps you would enjoy participating in one of the ep discussions that deal with happy MickBeth, cause there are some of those too... we've done a few, and there will be more to come.

But discussion does not mean breaking up into "camps" and raising a flag for your "camp" and rearguing the same point over and over... this isn't feeling like an intellectually open discussion in many of the posts... and that is a shame, because our ep discussions usually allow for folks to disagree about details in the shows... and also because this issue could come up again in FdL and TMC . I hope next time, folks do act a little more open to learning WHY someone holds an opinion different from your own... any maybe looks at the line or the scene FROM that perspective. We've only got the 16 eps... how fun to find a new way to look at one of them for a minute or two! Cause there aren't gonna be anymore.

[darlingcat]

I didn't mean to offend anyone and definitely not you, my dear Grace!
I thought we should feel free to express our thoughts and opinions here but...
Did the writers leave many holes when they develop Coraline's character? Yes!
Were there happy moments in Mick's marriage? I suspect there were like in any union no matter what the final outcome, but the viewer did not see them. I don't like blaming the writers because they only had 16 episodes and rightfully chose to focus on the romance between Mick and Beth. Had they had a second or third season, maybe we would have been offered a better look at Mick's past, being his life with Coraline or his friendship with Josef, or his human life. I would have loved that!
I assure you I have no "agenda" or "flag" to carry. I hardly ever post in any other thread except Mick's. I am a Mick girl
The discussion attracted my attention, that's all, and commented on a few posts.
Peace

[GuardianAngel]

Ladies, all opinions and views are welcome here- as long as it can be done in a civilized manner. This is a discussion thread - not a death match ring.

I'm reading through this thread and all I can think is that I am absolutely petrified to discuss FdL when we get to it. This is suppose to be fun.


We all have our likes and dislikes and that includes characters and pairings. That's only human. But we can NOT disrespect the thoughts and views of others because they differ from our own. If you feel passionate about this, you can be sure that so will others. So be careful what you say and how you say it. Remember, do unto others....

That's all I'm saying.

[allegrita]

And you're saying it so well, GA.
What a wonderful job you're doing of handling these episode threads, giving us wonderful synopses, fabulously chosen caps, and careful guardianship of the discussions. You are aptly named. Thanks for all you do for us!

[Phoenix]

OK, I have just caught up with the entire thread.

Liana - I read your most recent post, I am acknowledging it, but I won't respond other than that.

Everybody - I have already contacted several people via PM, but I also just want to make a few observations "in public".

(1) I would like to thank the moderators for being the wise and gracious ladies they are.

(2) Thanks again to GuardianAngel for being such a wonderful facilitator of these discussions.

(3) Misunderstandings are all too easy on the internet, particularly when people are using a language which is not their mother tongue. Simple respect, however, is still a requirement on this board. Accordingly, please avoid using absolute terms such as right or wrong. The words agree or disagree are far less provocative.

(4) There are times when it is difficult for me to separate my personal opinions from my role as board administrator. Normally, I try to keep Phoenix ~ Administrator well and truly separate from Phoenix ~ member of the Moonlightaholics community, and most of the time I manage. (However, when I fail, I tend to do so in a spectacular fashion...)

(5) I'm really looking forward to the discussion of FdL ... and that conversation will not be allowed to degenerate as this one did.

Phoenix ~ admin.

[mwj01]

*tip-toes*

Sooo…I thoroughly enjoyed hearing Alex’s thoughts on the episodes – each and every one - and his comments on The Ringer I felt I could’ve written myself. "This is where it starts to get interesting," he said, and I couldn’t agree more! And it was intense. I had enjoyed all the eps up until this point, or at least parts of them, but The Ringer added a whole new dimension to the story and I was taken-in more so than before. Finally, we could see in more than just flashbacks, not only how significant Coraline was in Mick’s life, but that she is still. There’s no longer any question that she has an enduring effect on him…after all this time she can easily rattle his cage. We saw Coraline (in the guise of Morgan) in present day, so we learned more about her at last – the woman who essentially started it all. An entirely new and imo fascinating side to Mick was revealed (uncool looks really good on him too) and we saw Beth unnerved when she didn’t have all of Mick’s attention, which brought a revelation of her feelings - to the viewer and to her, I assume. Alex’s performance in the scene at the FOS after the cemetery beautifully reflects his description of Mick and Coraline’s relationship, that it's “the pain and love all mashed into one” and Mick carries it still. Knowing that’s what he was going for makes me appreciate what he put forth in that scene all the more.

[wpgrace]

I so agree! Alex's comments made me respect his performances as Mick, in all the eps, so much more! To read what it was that he was going for, and to realize how brilliantly he achieved it, just gives me shivvers!

And HE enjoyed rattled Mick! That cracks me up! We've been posting and discussing rattled-Mick Pics in the Mick thread (well, y'all've been posting; I've been enthusing... ) and it's cool to hear his take on it. He wants so desperately to have let her go... and he just hasn't. He can't. He is in this triangle now... which is actually a good thing, IMO, but he doesn't know it yet. He's gotta confront his feelings for Cora for real, at some point, in order to move on. And the convenience of her death has now been taken from him, in the person of Morgan.

And while Alex did not address the issue in The Ringer comments, he did in the FdL one... that he too had a hard time believing that Mick didn't know Morgan was Cora... so he kept trying to slip into his performance that he knew on some level it was her. I was glad to read that. To read that Alex had the same skepticism that we did and wanted to leave that door open, that Mick knew. At least on some level, he knew. Cause as we've discussed here, Mick was NOT stoopid.

[redwinter101]

Rattled Mick? Be still my heart.

For me, it was the conflict that Coraline created that really set the sparks flying. Mick and Beth didn't just have to overcome their inherently different natures, they had to overcome Mick's past as well. And that was a fascinating and revealing struggle for them both. Thanks to Alex's wonderful performance, we saw, writ large, the pain, the passion, Mick's desire to move forward while still being drawn back to the past. And it was amazing to see.

Red

[coco]

I found the Alex Ringer comments particularly fascinating. He definitely brought so much to rattled Mick and it was clear that it was important to him to show this side of Mick and what the reappearance of Coraline did to him.